Total Eclipse of the sun
- Thread starter cmmguy
- Start date
niechiro
Around The Moon
Have you ever flown into Airventure at Oshkosh? I have always been one to keep a sharp eye out for traffic. However, my 74 year old eyes are not as good as they used to be even with eye glasses. From our experience at Oshkosh, ADS-B became much, much more reliable than vision. It will show an airplane that we will look out for, but often never even see. My Garmin 750 has a feature where we can pick the distance radius This is what we did as we approached Rippen and Fisk. As we got closer, we adjusted the radius so that it got more detailed as we got closer. This is a tool that was very impressive for a non-commercial aviator.
CalifDan
Orbiting Earth
I think traffic information is an absolute substitute for looking out. That is not an argument for not looking, but if there is traffic showing and it is an immediate concern, I am not going to wait to visually identify it before taking action. I can't remember the last time an aircraft went by that I saw the was not on the ADSB-IN. I often see them on the scope without being able to visually confirm. I have a lot more confidence in my traffic information than in my ability to spot traffic. John is right that it is a tool. We might disagree if it is a substitute.
TCAS alerts at the airline are trained as immediate response alerts. Immediate.
TCAS alerts at the airline are trained as immediate response alerts. Immediate.
cmmguy
Orbiting Earth
Adsb traffic is potentially delayed information so it could be a minute or two off or worse. There is more traffic on adsb than I see visually but I still look regular for traffic. If there is one on adsb I try to find it visually but rarely do if it's more than 2 miles away. It does seem that most traffic above 4500 has adsb so, unless there is a reason to stay low, I always try to cruise at 6500 or above just because of that .
sparkie951
Touring the Galaxy
niechiro - No, never flew into Oshkosh during the event, however, I have watched it on Flight Aware and listened on Live ATC... To say it is busy is the understatement of the Century!
CalifDan - You are exactly right... The ADSB is no substitute for a good pair of eyes and constantly looking for other traffic, but just like a Mechanics Tool Box, it is another tool in the tool box. Used correctly it can help, use in correctly, it can have great consequences.
cmmguy - good observation on 4500 and ADSB. As noted I treat ADSB-In like a tool in my tool box and use it as designed, but not to use it as a crutch or substitute for not looking for other traffic visually. Also, the other plane may have ADSB-Out or it could be failed and the pilot not even be aware of it, especially if it fails in flight.
CalifDan - You are exactly right... The ADSB is no substitute for a good pair of eyes and constantly looking for other traffic, but just like a Mechanics Tool Box, it is another tool in the tool box. Used correctly it can help, use in correctly, it can have great consequences.
cmmguy - good observation on 4500 and ADSB. As noted I treat ADSB-In like a tool in my tool box and use it as designed, but not to use it as a crutch or substitute for not looking for other traffic visually. Also, the other plane may have ADSB-Out or it could be failed and the pilot not even be aware of it, especially if it fails in flight.
corcoran
Orbiting Earth
Dan, I am only guessing but: I do not think total-eclipse-time will be "night".
Jay, are you sure that the TRAFFIC page on ADS-B is delayed as is WEATHER?
Mike N.: I loved being in the mix at Ripon and Fisk. No TRAFFIC page in 1995.
Sparkie, Margie and I are driving to the eclipse too. We plan Ticonderoga, NY
Kamal, I could meet you at the Ticonderoga airport.
Jay, are you sure that the TRAFFIC page on ADS-B is delayed as is WEATHER?
Mike N.: I loved being in the mix at Ripon and Fisk. No TRAFFIC page in 1995.
Sparkie, Margie and I are driving to the eclipse too. We plan Ticonderoga, NY
Kamal, I could meet you at the Ticonderoga airport.
jhbecker
Around The Moon
Okay --- from 10 years old memories, here's how it works ......
978mHz signals are direct plane to plane. AND are picked up by ATC radar stations along with the regular Mode C and Mode S X-pndr broadcasts from aircraft.
ATC rebroadcasts all of the 1030, 1080 and 978mhz traffic data it is receiving on both the ADS-B frequencies, 978 and 1080mHz, in data bursts every couple seconds. So if you have either type of ADS-B IN receiver AND you are line of sight of an ATC radar facility you will get all traffic that have any type of X-pndr that ATC is tracking.
If the "target" aircraft has a 978 or 1080mHz (ADS-B OUT) X-pndr, the data ATC rebroadcasts includes that aircraft's GPS data and Registration.
If the target does not have ADS-B OUT, then the data will be limited to the position and altitude only.
The delay for traffic data is very minimal. A couple seconds, at most. The most frequent cause of data interruptions/loss, it terrain issues. All trhis stuff in Line-of-Sight.
The software in your ADS-B IN device will filter out duplicate data your are receiving directly from another airplane and contained in the ATC data burst. So you'll only see a single target for that aircraft.
All this only works when the target aircraft has an operating X-pndr.
Aircraft with no electrical system, or where the pilot is too lazy to turn on his X-pndr, are just as invisible as they have always been.
ATC includes weather data in each data burst, but the data comes from various NOAA ( Not FAA ) weather stations and NOAA weather radar sweeps. (Note: This includes airport AWOS and ATIS data that are reported to NOAA. Some military ATIS's aren't included). Most stations update on either 20 minutes or 1 hour intervals. And a full 360 degree horizontal, 90 degree veritcal weather radar sweep requires about 15~17 minutes.
Weather data is the part of ADS-B data that can have a significant time lag because the data sources don't update any more quickly than that.
If you want the actual current, moment by moment, AWOS/ATIS data for an airport you must be within range and listen to it on your radio or have a Sirius XM-Radio receiver.
What Sirius does do, that ADS-B does not, is receive and translate the actual, current AWOS/ATIS transmissions. So you get all of those, from everywhere in real time. And Sirius does get real-time lightning strike data (same as you can with an internet connection and logged on to the correct web site)
And dispite the Sirius XM-Radio ads - Sirius gets their weather radar data from the same NOAA data sources. Since it's physically impossible for a weather radar to do a 360 X 90 sweep in under 15 minutes, the Sirius "radar" data is not any more accurate than ADS-B.
.
978mHz signals are direct plane to plane. AND are picked up by ATC radar stations along with the regular Mode C and Mode S X-pndr broadcasts from aircraft.
ATC rebroadcasts all of the 1030, 1080 and 978mhz traffic data it is receiving on both the ADS-B frequencies, 978 and 1080mHz, in data bursts every couple seconds. So if you have either type of ADS-B IN receiver AND you are line of sight of an ATC radar facility you will get all traffic that have any type of X-pndr that ATC is tracking.
If the "target" aircraft has a 978 or 1080mHz (ADS-B OUT) X-pndr, the data ATC rebroadcasts includes that aircraft's GPS data and Registration.
If the target does not have ADS-B OUT, then the data will be limited to the position and altitude only.
The delay for traffic data is very minimal. A couple seconds, at most. The most frequent cause of data interruptions/loss, it terrain issues. All trhis stuff in Line-of-Sight.
The software in your ADS-B IN device will filter out duplicate data your are receiving directly from another airplane and contained in the ATC data burst. So you'll only see a single target for that aircraft.
All this only works when the target aircraft has an operating X-pndr.
Aircraft with no electrical system, or where the pilot is too lazy to turn on his X-pndr, are just as invisible as they have always been.
ATC includes weather data in each data burst, but the data comes from various NOAA ( Not FAA ) weather stations and NOAA weather radar sweeps. (Note: This includes airport AWOS and ATIS data that are reported to NOAA. Some military ATIS's aren't included). Most stations update on either 20 minutes or 1 hour intervals. And a full 360 degree horizontal, 90 degree veritcal weather radar sweep requires about 15~17 minutes.
Weather data is the part of ADS-B data that can have a significant time lag because the data sources don't update any more quickly than that.
If you want the actual current, moment by moment, AWOS/ATIS data for an airport you must be within range and listen to it on your radio or have a Sirius XM-Radio receiver.
What Sirius does do, that ADS-B does not, is receive and translate the actual, current AWOS/ATIS transmissions. So you get all of those, from everywhere in real time. And Sirius does get real-time lightning strike data (same as you can with an internet connection and logged on to the correct web site)
And dispite the Sirius XM-Radio ads - Sirius gets their weather radar data from the same NOAA data sources. Since it's physically impossible for a weather radar to do a 360 X 90 sweep in under 15 minutes, the Sirius "radar" data is not any more accurate than ADS-B.
.
Last edited:
jhbecker
Around The Moon
I still think the "night" aspect of the eclipse is fun to consider.
Looking at the NASA data from when/where totality will be, the apparent speed of the eclipse over the ground will be a around 760mph. So I guess none of us will be taking off in Texas, then following the totality all the way to Vermont.
But I bet someone from NASA will be flying it.
Looking at the NASA data from when/where totality will be, the apparent speed of the eclipse over the ground will be a around 760mph. So I guess none of us will be taking off in Texas, then following the totality all the way to Vermont.
But I bet someone from NASA will be flying it.
cmmguy
Orbiting Earth
I don't know how much delayed it is, but even a few seconds is enough. I try to eyeball every target within a mile and especially any that might intersect my path.
I visually see traffic pass by path and look at the adsb display and it still shows it 1/8 mile back.
The whole system has to be delayed if you think about our rate of travel and then all of the delays in the data. The best GPS poll at about .1/sec. At 150 mph that alone is +/- 50feet in mislocation before the transmission delay is added in. I couldn't find the adsb broadcast frequency nor the adsb receive frequency. Those delays all stack up. Then add in the delay in transmission if it's not plane to plane.
If the target is within a mile you better visually see it.
I mean, I love the information, just don't stake your life on the accuracy.
sparkie951
Touring the Galaxy
I have played with Foreflight and watching planes in and around my airport... Any delay that I have noticed would be in Microseconds... I have watched people taxi by me, Others in position and hold and as soon as I see visual movement, the ADSB display in foreflight using the Sentry and Sentry Plus... I would imagine that built-in Garmin ADSB-IN and Out would be the same if not even better as they use the "Arinc 429" bussing. Where there is obvious delay due to electronics and data movement, I would venture to say the time would be measured in Milli or Micro seconds from my observations at my local airport. I am also an ADSB Feeder from my home and feed Flight Aware and have been doing so since they started the program. I can watch the computer and the plane visual and see no distinguishable difference. A Plane flying over my house is showing over my house as they pass over!
niechiro
Around The Moon
I've flown for almost 50 years and grew up through the years that we did not have ADS-B. It is my opinion that my depending on seeing other aircraft by sight, I missed 99% of the traffic. Years ago I was had exited Omaha airspace eastbound and was startled by a turboprop Air Force plane heading right at me at an angle so I pushed the elevator way forward to avoid the traffic which appeared to have been at my altitude. I visually missed that big boy coming at me fast. With today's technology, that would not happen.
N6008L
Around The Moon
I agree. I rarely see traffic, even when ATC calls it out to me. That's why I get FF as much as possible. Potomac is pretty good about that. I would get FF taxiing to the fuel pumps if they would let me.
kamwings
Flight Levels
Tom, would have been great to meet you at Ticonderoga. We’ve made reservations to land at St Catharines in the Niagara region and watch the eclipse from the airport there. Initially I was thinking we would watch from the air, but I decided I’d rather actually be able to see it too, since I couldn’t watch it and fly at the same time. If low clouds get in the way, we may still be in the air for it though, so least my wife can see it from above the clouds.
sparkie951
Touring the Galaxy
That is why I am having an ADSB-IN/OUT Transponder installed. Will be able to view on a dedicated screen as well as the navigator for up to 200 nm miles out... Even though I cannot see where anything further out than 5 miles would really be useful!
jhbecker
Around The Moon
John, check your display software specs. Most GA, in-flight software only shows you the traffic within a 15 mile radius of your position.
I've had mine since Jan. 2015. So lots of experience with it. I leave the range on the display set to 5 mile radius because I don't need to see anything further away and I really don't like the screen cluttered up with 20 to 50 little moving symbols all headed away from me. What I care about is what is headed towards me, within 1000 feet of my altitude and close enough to (maybe) see them when I look out the window. The relative position info ADS-B IN gives me help me know where to look.
In fact with all your new gizmos you will find that after you've got about 10 hours flying with them you'll have found the display settings you like best and will leave them there.
I've had mine since Jan. 2015. So lots of experience with it. I leave the range on the display set to 5 mile radius because I don't need to see anything further away and I really don't like the screen cluttered up with 20 to 50 little moving symbols all headed away from me. What I care about is what is headed towards me, within 1000 feet of my altitude and close enough to (maybe) see them when I look out the window. The relative position info ADS-B IN gives me help me know where to look.
In fact with all your new gizmos you will find that after you've got about 10 hours flying with them you'll have found the display settings you like best and will leave them there.
cmmguy
Orbiting Earth
Just 10 minutes ago. Straight over top. They never budged. I dived 750' to open up the distance. Watched the target from 7 miles out. Never saw him visually.
This is in the middle of nowhere Louisiana. It was a factory Cessna. Looked up the n#
23knt headwinds...at 4500.. ugh.
