Take offs - High Density Altitude

Rooster353

Level Cruise
When taking off at high density altitude,
what criteria do you use to know that you have leaned correctly prior to take off?

If leaning is appropriate for a takeoff at high density altitude,
why is leaning not appropriate for every take off?


Steve
Sierra N18930

"Often in error, never in doubt."
 
In a nutshell, if the density altitude makes it impossible for you to exceed 75% power, you can lean to max power for takeoff. This should always be a safe bet at 8,000 feet DA; but I suspect it is always safe at 7,000 DA or less. I say that because if you can't reach 2,700 RPM on the takeoff roll, you can't get 100% power.

Along the same lines, if you can't get 2,700 RPM at 8,000 feet DA, you can't get 75% power. If you can only get maybe 2,500 RPM, then the effective DA for 75% power will be something less than 8,000. Some of the power charts may reflect this combination.

There is also the fact that our engines, as installed, cannot make the Lycoming certification numbers anyway. So normal restrictions such as the air induction and filter, coupled with the exhaust system, result in the effective DA for 75% or less power being somewhere below 8,000 feet.

This should explain why you can't lean on every takeoff; you are supposed to be sure that power is below 75% before leaning to peak EGT. High density altitude drags down the power due to reduced oxygen content in the air. Though it is possible to skirt this guideline with all-cylinder CHT-EGT instrumentation, I won't get into that here.

Also keep in mind that with the proper instrumentation you can indeed lean while exceeding 75% power. You just can't lean beyond 125 degrees (or so) rich of peak. This assumes low enough CHT readings. If CHTs remains high, you have to use higher airspeed (lower rate of climb), a power reduction (lower rate of climb), or excess fuel (full rich, expensive) to keep the heads cool.

It would be an interesting project for someone to calculate the fuel consumption that would result in 75% of 180 HP (or 200 HP), using a PPHPH figure of maybe .45. Call it 10 GPH at 135 HP for a 180 HP engine. Then climb to 8,000 feet, lean to peak EGT, and see how far you can descend and still burn 10 GPH at peak EGT with full throttle. Calculate the density altitude at that point. That should be the 'critical altitude' to use max leaning for that particular airplane and engine (at full throttle). When you start to burn more than 10 GPH at peak EGT, it means that power production is exceeding 75% (135 HP).
 
I'll chime in, though I imagine some of you who routinely fly at high D/A's will also offer some guidance.
At take off, after I'm satisfied the engine is nicely warmed up I'll bring up full power, standing on the brakes, note both the static RPM and the EGT and then lean slowly. In very high D/A's the rpm usually increases as you pull the mixture. When I get the RPM drop off I have a quick look at the EGT, then richen the mixture until the drop off clears, then a bit more than I would do in cruise. I then look at the EGT to confirm its also dropped by about 3 units. Check Idle, take to the runway and blast off, keeping a sharp ear out for any signs of detonation. If this happens enrichen the mixture slightly..Do not ram home full rich as this can have the effect of robbing you of power when you need it most.
As far as leaning on every take off there is merit in that approach providing you have the instrumentation to do it. An engine will benefit from leaning at 2,500 feet but the indications are far more subtle than at 7,500 feet.
I'm finally getting my engine analyzer installed at the next annual..That should give me the tools to precisely lean my engine under all conditions.
Mark II from Oz...
VH-DYA, A23-24.
 
An engine is setup to run full rich at sea level to develop max available power & cooling during T/O & climb.

Leaning at sea level would give less power & cooling.

Leaning prior to T/O comes into play higher up.

http://www.avweb.com/news/leadingedge/leading_edge_20_choosing_your_takeoff_198240-1.html

Mixture Technique
Afterward, if your nonpilot friend does ask you about mixture technique for takeoff, you might reply, "I use full rich except as need for takeoff performance, and if so, then I enrichen the mixture as necessary for engine cooling after transitioning to en route climb."
 
Guys, Thanks for sharing all this valuable info. I wish I had read this last summer, it would have saved me a dangerous rookie mistake.

I took off from Guadalajara, Mexico (5000 MSL) in the morning (still about 98 degrees F) fully loaded w/fuel, baggage and my family. It had just rained about an hour before but the sky was clearing. Thank God for me the runway was really long (13,000ft.) After lift off I'm hearing the stall horn immediately. Yikes, nose down. At nearly level I was riding the edge of the envelope with the stall horn chirping and only getting 100ft. climb. Mexican ATC kept giving me vectors straight into a mountain thinking that I could climb. This is also an airport that serves a city of 9 million so there is a lot of BIG traffic and pollution haze. I eventually leaned to best power and got a descent climb. The only good thing about that flight was that it ended with us alive in Puerto Vallarta. Using the caluculators that were recently posted I'd put the DA at over 9000 ft that day.
I will never make that mistake again.

Again thanks for sharing all your insights. They are life saving!

Matt
Super III
 
Matt,

It was at Guadalajara that the Mexican Air Force once had a large fleet of Sundowners and Bonanzas for pilot training. Did you see any of those aircraft still on that field?

Sciscoe
 
Ok, so 2400 density altitude today at KNEW (MSL=4).

Full fuel, max passengers, taking off at full gross.

Would you lean for takeoff?
 
Sciscoe,

Sorry, I didn't see any other mice in Guadalajara, but to be honest it was so hot all I could think about was getting out of my greenhouse and into the shade, so I didn't spend much time looking around. It's a pretty big airport with lots and lots of hangars. There could have still been some there.

Matt
 
Steve,

I would. But, I have an engine analyzer. I'd hold the brakes, firewall the engine, lean to peak EGT, then enrich 150 deg and release the brakes. You'd be at, or very close to, your best power setting. This is my SOP because I live at some slightly higher density altitudes. Today our D.A. is 4344 ft., but it's only 105 deg F. Our elevation is 1243 MSL

Marty Vanover
Phoenix, Az
 
I live and trained at 3000+ MSL. My instructor taught me to lean for every takeoff. You get to know where the mixture control should be, but when it gets hot, you need to lean even more. Flying a C-150, and then a Sport 150, I need all the power I can get. My instructor taught me to lean to max RPM, then enrichen the mixture by a comfortable margin to make sure you're not too lean. Can't have the engine quitting at the end of the runway. On a normal day at Sunriver, 4162' MSL I lean to max RPM then give 6 twists in on the vernier mixture control. On a hot day, 5000' DA + its four twists in. One twist is approximately 1/2 of a full rotation. It seems silly to me to use anything less than the full potential of the engine on takeoff. (Unless of course you're engine has way more power than you need. I still don't have the luxury of flying over-powered airplanes.)

So my SOP is to lean for every take off with a DA of 2000 MSL or more. At sea level, or 1000', its full rich for takeoff. In climbout from a low elevation airport, I notice my climb rate drop somewhere around 4000 MSL. This tells me that 4000' is the critical elevation at which leaning becomes a wise thing to do.

At Redmond, 3080' MSL, where I trained, on a cool day we might see DA's below 3000' but we still leaned for every takeoff. This is part of what made me decide that 2000' is a good place to start leaning for takeoff. But at DA's that low, you might want to push the mixture back in once you have reached a safe altitude. But expect to see your climb rate decrease if you do.

Mike, I would like to know how you feel about this. Is there a chance that I am damaging my engine by leaning below the 8000' you suggested. It just seems to me that leaning is necessary at much lower altitudes. When working from 6-7000' DA's, I would likely end up in the trees if I didn't lean.

One more note. We had a Piper Arrow depart Sunriver (S21) today with temps in the 90's, 3 men, baggage and something like 40 gal. of fuel. (They bought 27 gal, and I am assuming they had 10-20 gals. to start.) They used about 3500' of runway, "staggered" off the runway, sucked the gear up, cleared some trees and set it down in a meadow, gear up, maybe 1/2 a mile from the end of the runway. I believe they are used to operating from a sea level airport. While fueling, they asked me if people worried about density alt. operating from sunriver. "Heck yeah" I said, "You have to watch it up here." To be honest, I don't know if I would have attempted to fly by myself with 20 gal. Of course they had more power, so they tried and failed. All three passengers walked away without a scrape, but the airplane is totaled due to the costs of repair. (Prop strike, and airframe stress/damage.) So you can try, and you might survive, but you might not have an airplane anymore. Around the same time a C-150 with two aboard taxied all the way to the end of the runway, did their runup and decided to taxi back to parking and wait for cooler temps. While their plans were delayed, the airplane will fly again and they never had to deal with the FAA or the news reporters.

I wonder what the Arrow pilots' leaning procedure was. The moral of the story is, high DA's are no joke. If you are unsure of you're airplanes performance. Why don't you figure it out when you're not right next to the ground. I think that these guys found themselves in a situtation that they didn't expect to be in. They picked the wrong airport for a fuel stop. From WA to CA, they could have stopped on the West side of the Mountains at a Sea level airport. They did not realize that they would be facing the high DA until they were on the ground in Sunriver. Then, all it took was a little "Getthereitis" and they made a bad call. So this accident chain began long before they arrived in sunriver.

FLY SAFE!!!!


Ben
 
Since the Sierra has suggested fuel flow markings for climb at different altitiudes I have used these whenever best takeoff performance was indicated. (High DA and/or short runway). Although the Beech instrument is a fairly crude indicator of fuel flow, the settings seem to be a safe range above peak EGT and I believe them to be a useful guide.
Anybody else use this?
 
paulwerbin said:
Since the Sierra has suggested fuel flow markings for climb at different altitiudes I have used these whenever best takeoff performance was indicated. (High DA and/or short runway). Although the Beech instrument is a fairly crude indicator of fuel flow, the settings seem to be a safe range above peak EGT and I believe them to be a useful guide.
Anybody else use this?

Well, Heck Yeah!

I always thought the Sierra Fuel flow instrument was the best in the business! "BAC in the day" I flew Sierras out of hot West Texas airports 3000'+ MSL, The old Ruidoso, NM airport 7000'+ MSL and Angel Fire, NM 8380' MSL. Later on I flew a Mooney out of the same fields and really, really missed the Sierra Fuel Flow Instrument. I thought it was one of the best parts of a fantastic aircaft that had many wonderful features to fall in love with.

I also had a great instructor.

Sciscoe
 
Wow, sometime I will have to get my Sundowner down to somewhere where I can see 100% power on T/O. Even in the winter here, I have to lean for MAX power. Then again, my field elevation is 4620 MSL. :D

I need to get an engine instrument installed to replace our old EGT. It would be nice to know exactly what we are doing and the power we are producing up here.

Jason
 
It's interesting to read Ben's (aukerinc) post because it was at Sunriver (S21) where I was delivered my lesson on DA. It was an August 11th 2008 and I was off to an early 7:30am start (About 50 degrees out at 4150 feet). I hiked a nearby mountain the day before and camped out the evening before. Flying a rented a carbed 180hp C172, a little new to the airplane (I had been flying 150s prior, not too different) and new to flying positioned me for a good learning experience.

First hint for me was trying to start the engine. I had followed the procedure, checked the checklist and done everything I NORMALLY did. I wondered for a minute before trying again and decided I needed another primer shot. Second time, no go too. Scratched my head, did the checklist again, everything looks fine, started it up fine.

I do a thorough run-up, and everything seemed fine, take the runway (and I took almost the whole runway) and head out on my east departure. The problem was that it seemed the plane was not developing full power. I was perplexed and continued my slow climb still wondering. I looked at the altitude after a minute and was at about 4500 feet and it suddenly struck me, lean mixture. I did and what a difference, about 250 rpm.

I was relieved. I arrived back at my home airport safely.

I reflect on that flight a lot and think about all the what ifs. What if it was later in the day, much hotter and higher density altitude? maybe I would not have been a little sharper (I did camp out and hike a mountain the day before). What if the runway was shorter? The engine not sarting after the second try should have raised a few flags, but I was so inexperienced at that point that I really had not made the flags yet. I should have ground leaned for starting.

But my instrutor never really showed me leaning for taking off, we only really leaned for enroute altitudes above 3000'. I recalled him mentioning the term "ground lean". Anyway, luckily it was early and cool and a decent runway at the Sunriver Airport. (I do highly recommend it there, check out the Sisters mountains).

That's my little story.
 
That's my post above, waited too long again. I will use Word for these manuscripts in the future and paste in shortly after login.
 
You know, I always start with the mixture full rich, then lean while I wait for the engine to warm up. I wonder if it would start easier if I lean before I start. An interesting thought. Thanks, John. Note, I lean again during runup before takeoff.

There has been much speculation about the accident on Friday. It was a sea level pilot and many of us think that he didn't lean at all. I'm glad you're scenario gave a better outcome.

I had a takeoff last year that made me watch density altitude a whole lot closer. Out of Bend with myself, two passengers and the dog, and say 40 gal. I did lean as usual, but my climb rate was barely 150'/min. It took so long to get to 500 agl that I was sweating and my right knee was shaking from holding the rudder pedal. Another good learning experience. This flight was in the heat of the day. Now, if I don't have to fly when it's hot, I don't. And I definately watch the weight. If I'm loading up for a long trip, I leave early in the morning and plan my stops at low elevations. But with 60 gals, stops aren't usually neccessary.

Ben
 
I've always started the airplane with the mixture full rich, and I fly out of 6000 ft MSL airports on a regular basis. After the engine is running, I'll lean the mixture a good bit.

For take-off, I lean for max RPM at the suggested run up RPM, then push the mixture knob about 1/3 of the way back in... dollars to dounuts that is 150 rich of peak at full throttle. Full throttle run ups give me the willies, and through experimentation I've discovered the above techinque will give you the same performance. I double check static RPM at the beggining of the take-off roll, I should see ~2350 before rolling to far... anything less and I'm headed back to the run up pad to see what's going on.

I also depart with 10* of flaps and climb to a good 100 feet before changing the configuration.

It's times like that I wish I had a constant speed prop... another couple hundred RPM would be nice.

All the above is for a 180 hp B23...
 
http://www.lycoming.com/support/tips-advice/key-reprints/pdfs/Key Operations.pdf

A. GENERAL RULES

1. Without exception, observe the red-line temperature limits during takeoff, climb and high-performance cruise power operation.
a. Cylinder head temperature — maximum limit listed in the Lycoming Operator’s Manual.
b. Oil temperature limit — maximum limit listed in the Lycoming Operator’s Manual.
c. TIT - maximum allowable limit specified in the Lycoming Operator’s Manual.

2. Whenever mixture is adjusted, rich or lean, it should be done slowly.

3. Always return mixture slowly to full before increasing power setting.

4. At all times, caution must be taken not to shock-cool the
cylinders. The maximum recommended temperature change should not exceed 50˚ F per minute.

B. Leaning the normally aspirated engines

1. Use full-rich mixture during takeoff or climb. Careful observation of engine temperature instruments should be practiced to ensure the limits specified in Lycoming Operator’s Manual are never exceeded. Refer to the aircraft POH (Pilot’s Operating Handbook) or AFM (Aircraft Flight Manual) for more specific instructions.

2. For 5,000 feet density altitude and above, or high ambient temperatures, roughness or reduction of power may occur at full rich mixture. The mixture may be adjusted to obtain smooth engine operation. For fixed-pitch propellers, lean to maximum RPM at full throttle prior to takeoff where airports are at 5,000-feet density altitude or higher. Limit operation at full throttle on the ground to a minimum. For direct-drive and for normally aspirated engines with a prop governor, but without fuel flow or EGT, set throttle at full power and lean mixture at maximum RPM with smooth operation of the engine as a deciding factor.

3. For cruise powers where best power mixture is allowed, slowly lean the mixture from full rich to maximum power. Best power mixture operation provides the most miles per hour for a given power setting. For engines equipped with fixed-pitch propellers, gradually lean the mixture until either the tachometer or the airspeed indicator reading peaks. For engines equipped with controllable pitch propellers, lean until a slight increase of airspeed is noted.

4. For a given power setting, best economy mixture provides the most miles per gallon. Slowly lean the mixture until engine operation becomes rough or until engine power rapidly diminishes as noted by an undesirable decrease in airspeed. When either condition occurs, enrich the mixture sufficiently to obtain an evenly firing engine or to regain most of the lost airspeed or engine RPM. Some engine power and airspeed must be sacrificed to gain a best economy mixture setting.

NOTE — When leaned, engine roughness is caused by misfiring
due to a lean fuel/air mixture which will not support combustion. Roughness is eliminated by enriching slightly until the engine is smooth.

5. The exhaust gas temperature (EGT) offers little improvement in leaning the float-type carburetor over the procedures outlined above because of imperfect mixture distribution. However, if the EGT probe is installed, lean the mixture to 100˚ F on the rich side of peak EGT for best power operation. For best economy cruise, operate at peak EGT. If roughness is encountered, enrich the mixture slightly for smooth engine operation.

6. When installing an EGT probe, the probe must be installed in the leanest cylinder. Contact the airframe or kit manufacturer for the correct location. In experimental or custom applications, multiple probe instrumentation is required, and several power settings should be checked in order to determine the leanest
cylinder for the specific application.

7. During normal operation, maintain the following recommended temperature limits:
a. Cylinder head temperature — limit listed in the Lycoming Operator’s Manual.
b. Oil temperature — limit listed in the Lycoming Operator’s Manual.

8. For maximum service life, maintain the following recommended
limits for continuous cruise operation:
a. Engine power setting — 65% of rated or less.
b. Cylinder head temperatures — 400˚ F. or below.
c. Oil temperature — 165˚ F. — 220˚ F.
 
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