Is this what fly-ins are like?

[kamwings]

I went to my first fly-in this weekend, to Sarnia airport, CYZR.  It's named after astronaut and former ISS commander Chris Hadfield, who was born in Sarnia, and Chris was going to be flying in to meet people and try to help save the airport, which the city is contemplating shutting down.  It turned out to be far busier than I expected, with probably over 100 planes flying in, plus lots of locals driving out to meet him.  As an un-towered airport, the radio was going non-stop, and it didn't help that some other nearby airports use the same frequency, which resulted in people stepping on each other from time to time.  But I followed standard procedure, made my calls, found the plane in front of me, and kept him in sight as I overflew the field and entered the left downwind.  

I turned final, making my call as I'm supposed to, and 20 seconds later, a Lancair flies right over me - barely 20-30 feet above me - and lands in front of me.  Needless to say, it startled the **** out of me and I lost my composure for a second.  I neglected the "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" rule and instead made a call on the radio to cuss him out and ask who just flew over me on short final.  He apologized briefly, I recovered and went around, but by the time I landed and parked just two planes away from him, he had disappeared into the crowd - not cool.  I would have expected him to come over and talk it over so we could figure out what went wrong.  But maybe I'm just a naive new pilot and this sort of crap happens all the time.  

I've attached a brief 20-second video clip showing how close a call it was.  I'm really disappointed that somehow I managed not to turn on my audio recorder, so the audio sucks and I can't listen to the radio calls to see whether he actually made any at all.  I did look at the FlightAware track of his plane (luckily he has ADS-B), and I could see he made a highly unusual approach to the pattern (attached here), and then flew a crazy aborted pattern and did a non-stop turn while descending all the way from crossing the field to short final.  I can't help but think he was trying to sneak in ahead of me on purpose, and he MUST have underflown the plane that I heard in the pattern behind me, too, given his track log data.  

I don't think this is normal, but what say you guys?  How upset should I be about this?  

<video src="https://www.beechaeroclub.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-media-uploads/kamwings/2021/08/20210814-Sarnia-landing-incident_01.mp4" controls="controls" width="640" height="480"></video>

 

[bbyer]

I think I would just be happy - a learning experience so to speak.

Low wing airplane and all so perhaps he did not see you, but the odds are as you suspect, he did, figured he was a fast mover etc and above you etc.  The ADS-B track is interesting.

About all I can say is that I would be looking at my airplane first.  I would make certain my radios were working; I say radios, as awhile back, I discovered that my #2 Com was very quiet in transmit.  Basically I rarely use it on transmit, just receive.  To make it worse, how I discovered it was that my #1 also was quiet in transmit - worked around the airstrip but ten miles out, not so good.

I came to the conclusion that #2 had been sick for a long time and #1, just recently, and in trying to figure out if I had a radio problem or a wiring / antenna problem, I picked up on both.  I do not regard myself as very smart, but got away with it so to speak.  The fixes were not even an AMU at the local avionics shop.

A second item and it does work on my Musketeer is the tail beacon, plus the wing strobes and the pulse light.

The pulse light is not much for guys flying up your tail, but it does seem to scare birds off.  The tail beacon is a strobe, red on the front but white on the rear.  It is not as bright as the new LED units but it adds to visibility.

I guess I would be looking first at my plane and then just be happy.

Also there is the sterile cockpit rule; that is passengers stay quiet when around an airport so that one can listen to traffic and attempt to develop a mental picture of the traffic.

While it would not apply to you, at my strip if the runway lights are on during the day and I did not click them on, I ask why.  It seems the IFR guys as a matter of habit click them on.  I should hear the clicks over the headset, but what I sometimes do not hear is the approach announcements as they sometimes remain on an IFR frequency rather than also transmitting on the airstrip frequency.  Those guys are often turbines and can blow you out of the sky.

Also in my in the circuit chatter, I always mention my airport name, in your case, Sarnia Chris Hadfield is I guess what it is called - sometimes that wakes people up.

http://www.sarniaairport.com/

An interesting question is if an ADS-B track has any legal standing here in Canada given that we not yet have low level ADS-B.

If that is the correct aircraft registration, the track is not pretty.

It seems Air Canada comes and goes from Hadfield but I presume it is not what I would call a "tower" airstrip?

And yes, to answer the question, flyins can be like that.

 

[kamwings]

My radio is definitely not the issue. I was on with ATC the entire 80 minute flight down to Sarnia, and I actually had an exchange with two other pilots as we were approaching the airport to help with positioning. Plus when I cussed out the Lancair pilot he immediately responded to apologize. And I’m pretty disciplined in my radio calls, every one included the airport name, my call sign and what I was doing. 

My wife is familiar with the sterile cockpit concept, so distraction from her talking to me was not an issue. If anything, I may have been so focused on my approach since it was a bit gusty that it’s possible I just missed his calls. But I don’t think so. I was very aware of the calls from the plane in front of me, as well as the plane that was behind me in the pattern. The chances that I only missed this one guy’s calls are pretty slim. 

I’m getting more and more convinced that he snuck in on purpose, after looking at the time stamps from his track log and comparing them to where I was and where the plane behind me must have been when he was making his crazy pattern maneuver. If I’m right, then my wife and I came within 30 feet of being taken out by some callous jerk. So if this sort of crap happens at fly ins, then I’m not sure I want to do any more. Just not worth the risk. 

 

[bbyer]

You may wish to look at the pictures of the two Lancairs in posts #5 and #6 per the link below.  It will not make you feel any better but ...

https://www.beechaeroclub.org/forum/fly-ins/15978/#p159017

I tend to drive to what I regard as the big flyins myself.   Out here on the Prairies, there is almost no such thing however so it is not much of a limitation.

Here, the deal is no radio - well no electrics; that is not uncommon, so how good one's own radios are does not really matter either.

 

[CalifDan]

I would be very pissed off.  Having said that, you spoke of making the appropriate radio calls in the pattern, but only mention you could not verify his.  Did you hear him calling?  Since you were surprised, I suspect you did not or he did not call downwind, base and final.  You are lucky this did not turn out worse.  I doubt that he did what he did on purpose.  If he actually knew you were where you were in that video and he cut in, he should not be anywhere near an aircraft.  I think it is much more likely that he just did not see you.  I can't explain why he would be on frequency (he answered your tirade) but fail to hear your calls.

That being said, I was approaching the airport in Tyler Texas some years ago after the tower closed and we started making calls over 10 miles out.  At the same time some guy in a Cherokee called leaving the ramp taxiing to a crossing runway from the one we had to use.  We called multiple times to report our distance from the airport and the base and turn to final.  About the time we were on base he called that he was taking the runway for take-off.  At that point, we called him by his tail number and suggested he wait a few seconds as we were going to be occupying the runway he was set to cross.  His response..."Oh, I didn't hear your calls".  Unfortunately, there are pilots who are barely aware of what they are doing, let alone what the larger picture is in their vicinity.

Probably a nasty move, but if you have the aircraft number, send the video and the information to the local FSDO.  They probably could not prove who was flying the airplane, but they might have a discussion with the registered owner.

I suspect one of the reasons that this particular small airport fly-in was a hit was because you had a celebrity attending.  That or some other unique attraction can add a lot of pilots to a fly-in.  And yes, lots of traffic at an uncontrolled airport can be very challenging.

 

[kamwings]

Thanks Daniel. That incident in Texas sounds scary, glad it turned out alright!

I think you’re right that he didn’t deliberately cut me off knowing I was on final. My suspicion is he didn’t really listen to the radio calls closely and didn’t realize quite where I was. Otherwise I just don’t understand how he could not have known I was on finally. His speed and altitude profile in the track log shows a very rapid turning descent all the way from crossing the runway at pattern altitude to touchdown. On final he was descending at 1000-1200 fpm. With his speed and the timing, he must have flown right past the plane that was behind me, and then been at about his turn to base as I was making my turn to final and announcing it. 

And just to clarify, I didn’t mean that I couldn’t understand his radio calls - I don’t remember hearing a single one, unless maybe he was the one call I heard several minutes earlier that announced a 10 mile final on the cross runway 06. I remember thinking “why is someone coming in straight final on 06 when everyone is using 33?” If that was him, he may have realized everybody was landing on 33 and turned from final 06 to left base 33, which may explain the strange entry to the pattern. 

I likely will report the incident to Transport Canada. 

 

[cmmguy]

kamwings said
 

I don't think this is normal, but what say you guys?  How upset should I be about this?  

 



  

Did you get the Tail number of the Lancair?

Did you happen to look at the Flightaware track of his plane?

Was he on a long final (no pattern, just straight in)?

They are much faster, did he over take you without knowing it? Forward visibility in the Lancairs is not very good.  Did he fly a super wide and higher pattern than you? Some folks think they fly airliners.

This info will help you understand what happened even if the other pilot is not interested.  I am not sure what I would do. I hate to rat on pilots but if he did a straight-in into a non-towered airport with no consideration to properly patterned traffic, I would have a pretty serious issue with the other pilot. This gets as close to a fatal midair as you can get without trading paint... you have every right to be disappointed in the flight etiquette of the other pilot.

Just something I do...  I look at each entry point where I am making a turn and scan for aircraft entering the pattern at that point.
When I turn downwind(staying in the pattern or making a cross wind pattern entry, I scan for aircraft coming in on the 45 or straight downwind entry.
When I turn base, I look for someone entering base to the right side and the opposite side.
When I turn final, I look for the guys that are doing straight-ins.
It is better to not trust the behavior of other pilots.

 

[kamwings]

Thanks J. The image of the flight pattern I included is of his flight. I think he was on a straight-in final for runway 06, which had two major issues: first, as you said, doing a straight in at an untowered airport when you know there’s tons of VFR traffic landing is a stupid decision, and second, runway 06 was closed because it was being used for airplane parking for the fly in. I actually heard someone call straight in final for 06 and thought at the time it was a stupid decision, and I think that was him. 

I think he eventually realized this and peeled off the straight in and instead just overflew the base leg and then swung around over the field to join the downwind for 33.  But none of it was normal, and there would have been unfortunately no way for me to see him. 

I’ve got his tail number and have reported the incident to Transport Canada. 

 

[kamwings]

cmmguy said

Just something I do...  I look at each entry point where I am making a turn and scan for aircraft entering the pattern at that point.

When I turn downwind(staying in the pattern or making a cross wind pattern entry, I scan for aircraft coming in on the 45 or straight downwind entry.

When I turn base, I look for someone entering base to the right side and the opposite side.

When I turn final, I look for the guys that are doing straight-ins.

It is better to not trust the behavior of other pilots.

  

These are all good habits, and ones I'll be making sure to do regularly from now on!  Thanks. 

 

[jhbecker]

Most likely, to my mind, is that he did NOT have a sterile cockpit. And he missed everyone else's radio calls. Right seater was commenting about "look at all the planes parked on the runway" or other chatter. Probably had one or two in the back seats complaining of full bladders and such, as well. Bet the guy didn't check the notams or he would have known Ry 6 was closed.

Very few people hop in a plane and say to themselves "I wonder how many other pilots I can kill today?" But there are always a mistakes. I'm glad this one resulted in a (much too) near miss. 

And 100 or more planes at a fly-in used to be the norm here in the PNW.

 

[cmmguy]

jhbecker said

And 100 or more planes at a fly-in used to be the norm here in the PNW.


  

Usually 300+ at Reklaw... with nonstop fly-bys. Maybe the busier they are, the more respect the pattern gets.

 

[cmmguy]

kamwings said
Thanks J. The image of the flight pattern I included is of his flight. I think he was on a straight-in final for runway 06, which had two major issues: first, as you said, doing a straight in at an untowered airport when you know there’s tons of VFR traffic landing is a stupid decision, and second, runway 06 was closed because it was being used for airplane parking for the fly in. I actually heard someone call straight in final for 06 and thought at the time it was a stupid decision, and I think that was him. 

I think he eventually realized this and peeled off the straight in and instead just overflew the base leg and then swung around over the field to join the downwind for 33.  But none of it was normal, and there would have been unfortunately no way for me to see him. 

I’ve got his tail number and have reported the incident to Transport Canada. 

  

Looks like he was fast and high as much as he overshot the pattern... and he snuck in over top and behind you. Not sure you could have seen him.  He didnt have much respect for the pattern.

 

[Dredd]

Surely it was an accident. Almost all pilots I have met are respectful to other pilots. Also, to fly something like a Lancair you've got to be (or sure better be) a proficient pilot. I think he realized he screwed up his approach and was preoccupied with feeling dumb in front of a bunch of pilots which resulted in him ending up doing something even dumber.

To answer your question, in my experience that is not how fly-ins go. My EAA chapter hosts a big Young Eagles event every month and our pilot controlled field gets very active. We have 3 runways and no taxiways. At these events the wind-favored runway is inherently the active and the other two become taxiways. Everyone looks (we have a lot of planes on our field with no radios nor ADS-B out) and listens to what is going on then just follows suit. 

 

[rkittine]

I have seen some interesting things during high volume fly-ins. I flew into Oshkosh once, never again. Not I land a long way away, rent a car and drive the last segment. I have really found it interesting at EAA Fly Ins where there are a lot of aircraft without electrical systems and radios. 

 

[CalifDan]

There should be no slack for aircraft without electrical systems.  I'm all for historic accuracy, but carry a damn handheld and communicate.

There is an uncontrolled field near me which is in Class G airspace.  It is not unusual for a marine layer to cover the airport but the ceilings might be at 500 - 700 feet.  I've seen pilots flying aircraft (without radios) doing touch and go practice staying below the ceiling.  Perfectly legal.  However, there is also a GPS approach that spits you out about 500 agl on final.  It is only a matter of time.  Why the FAA thinks this is ok has been a mystery to me for years.

I flew in there once (VFR) and one of those silent aircraft cut in front of me in the pattern.  When we landed, I discussed it with him.  His excuse....the aircraft needs to be historically accurate.  I asked him if he had ever heard of a handheld, shook my head and walked away.  I share airspace with this guy.

I agree that, as a group, pilots are better than, let's say, the set that includes all drivers.  Probably by a long shot.  But that does not mean we do not need to be vigilant for the exception.

 

[kamwings]

rkittine said
I have seen some interesting things during high volume fly-ins. I flew into Oshkosh once, never again. Not I land a long way away, rent a car and drive the last segment. I have really found it interesting at EAA Fly Ins where there are a lot of aircraft without electrical systems and radios. 

  

Yeah, until this Saturday, I was looking forward to someday flying to Oshkosh. Maybe even next year. Now… not so excited about it. 

 

[markweiss]

Daniel Jonas said 
There is an uncontrolled field near me which is in Class G airspace.  It is not unusual for a marine layer to cover the airport but the ceilings might be at 500 - 700 feet.  I've seen pilots flying aircraft (without radios) doing touch and go practice staying below the ceiling.  Perfectly legal.


  

Perfectly legal? Not here in Oz!

Without at a radio, it can only fly VFR.The VMC minimum for a VFR take-off is 1500’ AAL.

 

Yes, we are different.

 

[rkittine]

You need a radio here to fly IFR, so we are only talking about VFR. I do agree that if you don't have an electrical system, you should still have to have a radio to use. Most do. For many the advantage is not needing a Transponder and ADSb out.

Bob

 

[kamwings]

rkittine said
You need a radio here to fly IFR, so we are only talking about VFR. I do agree that if you don't have an electrical system, you should still have to have a radio to use. Most do. For many the advantage is not needing a Transponder and ADSb out.


Bob

Do US planes without electrics - and so without transponder or ADS-B - get an exemption allowing them into class B/C/D airspace?  

 

[cmmguy]

kamwings said

rkittine said

You need a radio here to fly IFR, so we are only talking about VFR. I do agree that if you don't have an electrical system, you should still have to have a radio to use. Most do. For many the advantage is not needing a Transponder and ADSb out.

Bob

Do US planes without electrics - and so without transponder or ADS-B - get an exemption allowing them into class B/C/D airspace?  

  

It is not automatic with ADSB. Exemptions are once per trip and have to generally made ahead of time.  I am not sure how you would enter class B, C or D without a radio

 

kamwings said

rkittine said

I have seen some interesting things during high volume fly-ins. I flew into Oshkosh once, never again. Not I land a long way away, rent a car and drive the last segment. I have really found it interesting at EAA Fly Ins where there are a lot of aircraft without electrical systems and radios. 


  

Yeah, until this Saturday, I was looking forward to someday flying to Oshkosh. Maybe even next year. Now… not so excited about it. 


  

Going into Oshkosh, even with thousands of airplanes, is way better organized that the most simple non-towered fly-in. I wouldnt let this discussion discourage you from the biggest bucketlist item for most regular pilots.