Amendment to the PT rules

[Clinderman]

Currently, among other criteria, the President's Trophy rules require that a qualifing event must be posted on the BAC calendar for a minimum of fourteen (14) days prior to the event. Before we begin another spring and summer flying season, I was curious if there would be support for reducing the time to five (5) days?

Here's why I am asking. Most of our members are VFR only and virtually everyone has scheduling difficulties from time to time. Since weather is the number one "fly-in killer," if we shortened the qualifing time the person hosting the event would be able to get a better idea of what the weather is likely to be on the planned event date. Even with five days there's a certain amount of weather prediction risk but trying to get a bead on the weather fourteen days (and usually more than that when the event is being planned) out seems to just cause the host a lot of work that then gets washed down the storm drains because the weather turns sour for the event.

There's really no magic in the fourteen day notice requirement as originally concocted. In fact, it could be argued that it discourages members from hosting because of the unpredictablility of weather vis-a-vis the set up, the site commitements that may be involved, etc. causes members to think twice about trying to host something that far in advance.

Anyway, just trying to get a feel for what you all might think.

Chris L.

 

[JMSpencer]

I agree, and second the idea. However, post the event as soon as posiible as tenative event, and confirm asap no later than 5 days before as "official"..

Just my 2 cents worth..

M Spencer

 

[markweiss]

Good point Chris.

Since this is almost entirely an E-group, with instant communications, it makes sense to me that as little as 48hrs notice should qualify, but a five day "tentative" booking is a good compromise.

Mark Weiss

 

[Clinderman]

Monty Spencer says: I agree, and second the idea. However, post the event as soon as posible as tenative event, and confirm asap no later than 5 days before as "official"..

And Mark Weiss adds: Since this is almost entirely an E-group, with instant communications, it makes sense to me that as little as 48hrs notice should qualify, but a five day "tentative" booking is a good compromise.

Both make great points. I'm sure part of the reason for "some kind of time period" of posting before the event was to stop abuse of the program. But I think fourteen days may be over-doing it a bit.

I definitely agree fly-in's should be posted as soon as practical and possible and that a minimum needs to be established. Let's see if we hear more ideas about this.

Chris

 

[sjcote]

I think the 14 day term was set to give the host time to make arrangements. I can see situations where that amount of time would be needed. My experience has been that it is relatively easy to set one up...doesn't have to qualify for a Barnum & Bailey Circus. In fact the hardest thing sometimes is the RD trying get the banner to the site (assuming he/she is not going to be there). 'Course the answer is FedEx or such.

Despite our dismal record for cancellations here in the Northeast, we have traditionally had good results in "Pop Up" events: "Next Saturday, Glens Falls. Be there, Aloha!". These currently do not qualify for PT points and, if there is no restaurant on site, means a scramble to buy burgers. Still, they have worked. Best one in recent times was Windham, CT (IJD). We had 9-10 planes there on quite short notice and Barry Burke and company had tents, grills, and beer(less) coolers. (It's the thought that counts.)

I could live with a five day run-up. It's part of my job to help folks put them on anyway. Perhaps the best practice should be to coordinate the desire to host a fly-in with the RD a month out (to avoid conflicts), make initial plans (get the OK from the airport, FBO, line up potential activities), and then to announce it five days to a week before.

I do like the idea of tentative bookings to let members plan. However we have to insure that the calendar isn't jammed with tentatives that are never really going to happen. That's a good way to generate apathy.

 

[sjcote]

These currently do not qualify for PT points and, if there is no restaurant on site, means a scramble to buy burgers.

Quoting myself...there's ego for ya! :roll:
But I think I need to add, for the education of many members, that the Regional Directors have a (modest) budget for these events. You the BAC member and prospective host do not put out your own $'s for food and such. Talk to your RD about what is/is not allowed. (ie: Dancing Girls...I've argued that for some time to no avail.) :wink:

 

[corcoran]

fly-in notice

It is my understanding that to host a fly-in that becomes "an official BAC event", it must have the blessing of the Regional Director.

That means he/she must be contacted and reply. Is that possible with only a five day window?

And, only one member gets the President's Trophy each year. This was Cloyd's idea and is a good one. But it is only one member. 100LL at my airport is $5.15 a gallon and that limits a great deal of flying.

Perhaps, one member with the most miles annually is too lofty a goal for most BACers. Maybe a "most events participated in" or "longest distance traveled for this event" may be within the grasp of every member.

And no recognition for the host organizer should be rethought.

Every trophy, from even the crappiest golf event, gets a place on my office wall. My black hat for being a BAC founder rates a special display.

Involving more people in the accolades has a motivating effect.

Tom Corcoran
Boston

 

[Clinderman]

Re: fly-in notice

It is my understanding that to host a fly-in that becomes "an official BAC event", it must have the blessing of the Regional Director.

That means he/she must be contacted and reply. Is that possible with only a five day window?

The rules say: "The event must be coordinated with the appropriate BAC Regional Director." I guess that is open to interpretation. I think an email to the appropriate RD with the fly-in details is adequate. Plus, I think five days would be more than sufficient to get a reply from the RD, IF that is even necessary.

I know what you mean about the impact of fuel costs on the fly-ins. I think the one trophy is good but additional points for longest trip to a fly-in and attending the most fly-ins has some merit, too.

Good thougts, Tom! Anyone else out there got some input?

Chris L.
KSLC
Sierra N5106M

 

[sjcote]

Re: fly-in notice

That means he/she must be contacted and reply. Is that possible with only a five day window?

That is why I think events should be sketched out ahead of time. If the organizers keep several days (OK, Saturdays or Sundays or holidays) in mind and peg it within the 5-7 days. (But I do think that most events will be announced longer in advance than 5 days, which should be a minimum.)

The rules say: "The event must be coordinated with the appropriate BAC Regional Director." I guess that is open to interpretation. I think an email to the appropriate RD with the fly-in details is adequate. Plus, I think five days would be more than sufficient to get a reply from the RD, IF that is even necessary.

"Appropriate RD"? Well, OK, if someone wants to plan a fly-in in Northeast but goes to Gary...well let Gary fight off the rain gods. :wink: (He'll probably have better luck. :roll: )

The job of the RD is to coordinate and assist in pulling an event off. I'm sure members could do it entirely themselves...but why go through the stress. Make me work! And the RD should also make sure that people don't stomp, inadvertantly, on other nearby events. Or that they don't shoot themselves in the foot by going up against some outside mega-event (like a major airshow a hundred miles away).

 

[dbuttram]

As North Central Region Director I can GUARANTEE you that if any of my members wants to host a fly in, I will always support it to the best of my ability (including providing funds if necessary) Although I try and attend as many North Central Region's fly ins as possible, I can't make them all. We have one on the calendar for June (thanks Dan) and I hope more members step up and volunteer to host. I check my e-mail quite a few times a day so 5 months or 5 days is not going to be a problem as far as I'm concerned. A lot of the lead time will be determined by what all is going to take place. If it is concert with another event then dates are already set. If we want to get together to burn some burgers and dogs a shorter time frame is possible. What goes on will probably determine the length of time that can be given. I have seen fly ins where the weather is great at the location and great at my home airport but in between is a no go. I think we need to plan like the weather is going to be Clear and 10 all over the country and go from there.

 

[vanhook]

I think we announced after BAC Fest an additional trophy for the member that attended the most events.

Longest distance flown was also discussed. But I think that would only apply to BAC Fest.

The rules were also amended, IF YOU PEA PICKERS WOULD READ 'EM, to give 250 points to the host. Those are included in the current totals posted.

In fact hosting at 34A is what's giving Rellihan his lead at this point.

 

[JMSpencer]

My comment on the tenative date was not well worded. Allow me to clarify.. I believe that posting the event as the soonest possible date, ie a month, two or even 6 months out was my original intent...however, normally 5 days or so is a pretty good time span for a general idea of what the weather is probably going to be looking like...so 5 days out would be " the last official" go or no go for the event, with an alternate date announced at that point.

For a second suggestion...from what I've read so far, there are a lot of good idea's, points and counterpoints presented. So, perhaps, the executive officers, and the RD's could over the next few months, examine the PT rules and criteria, establish them with idea's from this thread (which hopefully will continue over time) incorporated into the new rules. Continue with the current rules, and then just prior to or at the next BAC Fest, reissue them after a member vote, an executive/ RD vote or a poll vote here on the site. Possibly add in Honorable mentions for the other aspects mentioned, farthest flight to one, most attended, most hosted, etc...

I like the rules, however, unless IFR rated, some events for VFR pilots are not doable, but are doable if IFR rated, so some flexibility would an equalizer to allow everyone to compete for the PT Trophy. Anyway, just my thoughts...

M. Spencer

 

[wdnd5960]

I have been trying to restrain my posting like some people with more sense than I have, But since Cloyd invited pea pickers into the fray.

I think there should be awards for each class of aircraft. I do not see a Sport or classic 23 grinding out mileage at 5K to 7K and 99kts IAS competing with the proud crowd in flight levels and twice the speed. No offence intended to anyone.

And I agree with the post on a trophy for every stupid golf event, even if I put 4 balls in the lake on 13. I have a trophy and a photo like I won the Masters.

Just a pea picker comment, :roll:

Sciscoe

 

[rgschmi]

I've been thinking about a regional award for our region, based on the PT trophy rules, but that brings it's own set of problems - is it open to members from all regions that attend an event in our region, or members in our region that attend an event in any region, or just our members in our region attending events in our region?

At one time I thought patches or badges (like Scout merit badges) for event attendees would be cool, but I don't think it would be at all practical so I didn't suggest it.

I'm still thinking about the regional award, but haven't made any decisions.

 

[rodger79v]

What constitutes an official BAC event? According to the calendar, everything prior to BAC Fest in Santa Maria (October) is in Nebraska or the Southeast. Anything in the western half of the country is "Other."

 

[Clinderman]

What constitutes an official BAC event? According to the calendar, everything prior to BAC Fest in Santa Maria (October) is in Nebraska or the Southeast. Anything in the western half of the country is "Other."

Ask you shall receive! Here is what the rules say:

PT Events shall be Sun-n-Fun, Oshkosh and Beech Party plus any BAC event that meets the following criteria:

* The event must be sponsored by a BAC member.

* The event must be posted on the BAC calendar fourteen (14) days prior to the event.

* The event must be coordinated with the appropriate BAC Regional Director.

* The event sponsor must compile PT points for the event and report them to the President.

* A BAC member may sponsor an event in conjunction with an event sponsored by another organization (he can piggy back on another event) but the above criteria must be complied with.

Does this help?
Chris L.

 

[vanhook]

You forgot Rule #1.

Rule #1 THE PRESIDENT MAKES THE RULES.

Here are the rest of the rules from the link on the PT results page:

The President’s Trophy will be awarded annually at BAC Fest to the BAC member that accumulated the most President’s Trophy (PT) points during the previous calendar year.

PT points will be awarded only to BAC members that fly to a PT Event.

PT Events shall be Sun-n-Fun, Oshkosh and Beech Party plus any BAC event that meets the following criteria:

The event must be sponsored by a BAC member.

The event must be posted on the BAC calendar fourteen (14) days prior to the event.

The event must be coordinated with the appropriate BAC Regional Director.

The event sponsor must compile PT points for the event and report them to the President.

A BAC member may sponsor an event in conjunction with an event sponsored by another organization (he can piggy back on another event) but the above criteria must be complied with.

PT points will be awarded based on the following criteria:

PT points will be awarded for nm flown between the airports at which a takeoff or landing is made enroute from the point of departure to the fly-in.

If the final landing is in the vicinity of the airport but not at the site of the fly-in (e.g. the pilot attends SNF or OSH but does not land at the site of the fly-in) the distance to the last airport enroute will be used.

The source for the nm between airports shall be AirNav.com for all airports in the U.S.

An alternate source approved by the President may be used for airports outside the U.S.

PT points will only be awarded to one person in each plane for each nm flown.

PT points will be awarded to the PIC, unless the PIC is not a BAC member.

If two or more BAC members travel in the same aircraft, PT points will be split in accordance with how they split PIC time but no duplication of time is allowed.

The route flown to the fly-in need not be the most direct route, i.e. side trips may be flown enroute to the fly-in. Delays enroute will be permitted for sight seeing, visits, etc. on the way to the fly-in. Discretion will be used to determine the amount of deviation and delay to be allowed.

Anyone who hosts a fly-in will receive 250 PT points for hosting the event. Limited to one event per year for points. But host as many as you like.

 

[Clinderman]

I do like the idea of tentative bookings to let members plan. However we have to insure that the calendar isn't jammed with tentatives that are never really going to happen. That's a good way to generate apathy.

I have to respectfully point out that I would rather have the calendar bulging with "tentative" fly-ins than what we have now!

The point is, two weeks is just too long in my opinion. I don't think it can be successfully argued that there is a bigger killer to fly-in attendance than weather. If, in fact, that is true, then is just seems reasonable to me to shorten the time so a better weather picture can be ascertained by the host thus allowing the host to announce the event and have an improved chance that members can participate and earn PT points. Plus, we should only require written notification (read email) by the host to the appropriate RD and make it clear that the RD doesn't have to acknowledge the notification for the event to qualify as a BAC event. Again, the idea is to get people involved and DOING these events. If there are conflicts or issue with the tentative event the RD gets involved to help work them out.

As an example, I would like to host an event in southern Utah. It is not my home base and therefore the planning/logistics make it a little more difficult than if I lived there. But, the big issue for me is not the planning but rather the weather prospects. I don't want to get the FBO involved and slug through other preparations more than fourteen days out because the weather is just not knowable that far out.

I think if there is a potential "apathy builder" in the mix of all this, it is the constant cancellation of fly-ins. It's disappointing to the host and the members when the event is weathered out, so, I submit, the membership stops bothering to plan to attend because it is so far in the future and then the weather turns bad that they just lose interest in even checking the calendar....just my opinion.

Besides, even if the timeframe is reduced to five days notice, the host can announce the event as far in the future as they would like! The five days would just be the minimum. Happily some events are becoming quasi-traditional and even legendary (let's not go there!), and they are posted on the calendar weeks, if not months, in advance.

In conclusion, I second the idea to set up a committee to review the rules and present to the board a new and improved format.

Chris L. (phew!!)

 

[bacadmin]

This is great I love this group!! Come to KHDE June 21st

If their is any BAC'er in the Flight Levels (even in the Dutchess) I commend you on your soaring technique. The more fly-in's we have the more opportunity for points. Whatever the outcome everyone will feel like a winner at Holdrege, NE June 20-21st for the Nebraska State Fly in.
http://avmechseminar.org/page2.html

Thanks for the opportunity to plug our Fly-in