Sundowners Around Statue of Liberty

corcoran

corcoran

Around The Moon
I will be circling the Statue of Liberty in New York harbor at 11:30am local time on Sunday November 29th.

This is just for the fun of it. Please join me.

Be sure to go to AOPA.org for the new flight rules along the Hudson River Exclusion.

Tom Corcoran
C23
N5162M
781 843-4321
 
Darn! One of my partners is taking 58L tomorrow. Looks like it's going to be a nice day.

(I had her reserved for today...until the wind gusts tore the terminal door out of my hand and broke the hinges!)
 
Sundowners Over Statue of Liberty

Reply to Steve Cote's inquiry,

Yes. I circled the Statue of Liberty exactly at 11:30 am with many other planes and helicopters. No other BAC types in the group

There was a hitch though. I had a VFR flight plan filed from 1B9 in Massachusetts to JFK. I closed it with JFK Tower as I passed Coney Island at 500 feet. The Tower acknowledged but did not actually close the flight plan (VFR). So, about 12:30 Margie got a phone call from Flight Service to tell her that I did not close the plan. She was relieved to find me alive when I got home about 3:30.

Tom Corcoran
Braintree MA

ps I tested the system and it worked, Paul Shuch notified all NE members as a pop-up flying event.
 
FWIW you might want to consider filing a NASA form explaining how you thought your flight plan would be closed. It might be useful to someone else to learn the proper way to do this. Additionally it might come in handy and protect you if someone decides to file a formal complaint. These days NY can be touchy.
 
NASA form...excellent idea on so many counts. I'll second that great thought. All for one!
Charlie Baumann
Texas
 
CBaumann said:
NASA form...excellent idea on so many counts.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly concur. If you don't have a NASA ASRS form handy, you can download one from my flight school website, http://AvSport.org. Follow the Instruction tab, scroll down to the bottom and click on Training Documents, and find it under the FAA/TSA/NASA Forms heading.

Safe skies,
Paul
 
I filed the NASA form and will post anything eventful.
I did not try to lay blame to the controller. It may not have been his fault and ATC is very good to forgive my errors without official action.

I did give suggestions:
a) Make it easy for Tower to close VFR flight plans.
b) Be clear to us, when we file flight plans, which telephone number would be most helpful to FSS.

I have only filed IFR (rather than VFR) for at least the past 15 years. I'll bet JFK Tower never gets that request from VFR.

FSS called the home number listed and said they thought it was my cell phone. I can not hear my cell phone (thankfully) while I am flying.

Tom Corcoran, Boston
 
I almost never file a VFR flight plan (although I nearly always use flight following).

On every occasion where I have filed, someone has dropped the ball: no sign of it when I ask to open; lost when I cross to another center; not closed when asked; or, more often, no longer in the system when I arrive.

Of course, the one time everything worked, I'm standing at Quakertown, PA, yakking with people when someone walks out and yells "Hey 58L, ya forgot to close!!"
 
My understanding is that ATC does not close a VFR flight plan --- that happens only when a pilot calls Flight Service.

Did you get an "affirmative" response from the JFK controller that your flight plan was closed?

Larry
N65503
 
Often the confusion comes from the routine that ATC does close IFR flight plans but cannot close VFR flight plans. And when we don't very often use VFR flight plans, our entrenched habits take over. Unfortunately some ATC controllers regard a VFR "Cancel" to mean drop flight following. Often this causes confusion. The best we can do is report the confusion and hope someone finds a way to simplify things. This is one good reason for ASRS reports.
 
I did get an "affirmative" and flight following continued.

Two pilots on board and both heard the same thing.

May not have been fault at Tower but somewhere down the line.

BUT, this is a great ride down the Hudson River, over the George Washington Bridge, around the Statue of Liberty, over the Verrazano Bridge and down to only 500 feet along the beach passing JFK eastbound on Long Island. Something to plan annually.

Tom Corcoran
 
Definitely a beautiful ride! Well worth a trip to get there.
I personally am no longer fond of the "500 ft over the beach" route since the time I took out about 8 seagulls with a brand new plane. But that's another ASRS report in my history.
 
There have been a number of previous postings on the subject of VFR Flight Plans; pros, cons, and realities. Key points:

- ATC never sees VFR FPs, and cannot close them (except the hard way, by calling the automated FSS for you, and going through the same crap. What are the chances....)

- VFR FPs were designed for flights operating 'outside the system'. In other words, if you didn't file one, no one associated with any segment of the FAA would ever know that the flight occurred at all. Once upon a time in the West, as the saying goes, this was actually the case for most VMC flying.

- If you are operating this way, you are far better off to work out an escalation plan with friends or similar. If you fail to show on time, they are much more likely to effect a helpful search in time to do some good.

- If you want ATC oversight due to inhospitable terrain, traffic, whatever, you are vastly better off to obtain 'VFR Flight Following', whether other circumstances require the contact under VFR or not. If you are on a slow and low scenic flight, and don't want the radio interruptions that can arise from FF, that's understandable. But make sure that there are eyes outside the cabin other than down. In fact, it is very helpful to have a second plane who IS talking to ATC flying 'top cap', and/or spotters on the ground, any time that you can. Just as is often done during aerobatic training or practice. We always used a spotter plane during spin practice; and during low cruise down the northern stretches of the Grand Canyon and similar. There are many places that ATC cannot reach you, if you are low (and even if you are 'high', out West!).

- If you are already talking to ATC, things will trigger instantly if you declare an emergency, regardless of whether you are on a flight plan of any kind. No lost time trying to reach ATC or FSS during a real crisis. They will know almost exactly where you are; and exactly when you were forced down (if that happens). Contrast this with FSS awaiting expiration of the allotted time, having only your stated intended route to go by, and only an approximation of where you may be along that route. The new ELTs will help with pinpointing location; but not nearly as much so, if you buy one without integral GPS. While all of them accept external GPS input, that input is unlikely to exist following a forced descent (no aircraft power).

- If you are a relatively new pilot, and you completed most training in a quieter radio environment, using VFR FF will almost completely train you for radio usage when/if you pursue your Instrument rating. While you won't exercise all the terms used on the radio for IFR traffic, you will constantly hear the terms in use. Due to circumstances you will come to understand what they mean, and how they get used. While not officially a 'participating aircraft', functionally you will indeed be operating 'within the system'. You will be well prepared for 'the real thing' when that time comes.

VFR Flight Plans are necessarily taught to new students. In today's environment, that's about where their usefulness ends. And if you don't need to file one, you don't have to remember to close it. VFR Flight Following does the job much better, and is very rarely denied by Center. Approach cannot deny it unless they are also denying you access, in Class B airspace. If they deny it when you wish to transition Class C, just reestablish it with Center on the other side. Ditto if they deny it when you are departing Class C. The needed frequencies exist in many sources, including in many VFR and IFR GPS units. One common source for Center frequencies is by the agency name, along the 'turret lines' or 'checkerboard lines' shown on Sectionals. If you can contact Approach, they can also give you Center freqs. They will usually volunteer the needed freq, if they are busy and have to decline a FF request. For example, 'Musketeer 34Fox, contact Atlanta Center on 132.45 with that request in about five miles'. Piece of cake. Mmmmmmmmm.....
 
drseti said:
CBaumann said:
NASA form...excellent idea on so many counts.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly concur. If you don't have a NASA ASRS form handy, you can download one from my flight school website
Click to expand...

Or you can google "ASRS", take the official link, and file online. VERY easy. You fill out the online PDF, print it, stick it in your files, then hit SUBMIT.

asrs.arc.nasa.gov

- Jerry Kaidor
 
I agree with Mike's comments. VFR flight plans are 'almost' worthless compared to flight following - unless you are crossing the border, then you better have filed a flight plan. I almost always use VFR advisories (flight following) when on a cross-country. It's nearly as good as being on an IFR flight plan and you have the freedom to choose your own route and altitude besides (usually).
 
Sundowners Aroound The Statue of Liberty

Yes.

We all agree. VFR flight plans are not worth the trouble in a radar environment.

Flight following is better than filing paperwork.

But, why shall we not improve the VFR planning for those who are afraid to talk to ATC or flying in too remote an area to be safe otherwise?

Let's build on what we have.

In what FAA forum is our experience valuable here and listened to? How can we improve things?

Tom Corcoran
 
My personal preference is for Flight Following over VFR Flight Plan. But, and I have been taken to task for this in other forums...with some merit, If you are under Flight Following, they can kick you out if they get busy. Or they can lose you in terrain (Northeasters who fly the White or Green Mountains get this all the time...Boston Center just cannot see you if you are less than 5000').

In theory that Flight Plan is on file even if no one is looking over your shoulder. My problem is...what if they have lost it again?
 
like many CFIs, I try to put the different options for ATC/FAA services in perspective for the type of flying a pilot does during a BFR. This can be a good time to discuss these things. Although there are some similarities, there are some real differences. VFR flight plans are "whatever happened to" while Flight following is primarily collision avoidance.
In theory, the FAASTeam project should be a way to provide feedback on safety issues to the FAA. (FFASafety.gov) But the FAA is the FAA and I don't really know who they listen to. I do know (from unpleasant experience) that the ASRS reports are discussed with the ATC facilities when they are involved.
 
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